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I was a long time Romance reader. For decades this was my favorite genre, followed closely by Fantasy and SF. But something changed in the last decade or so. I find I’m not as interested in the Romance genre as it’s currently written.I’m not sure if it’s the genre that’s changed, me that’s changed, or a combination of both.
As a writer, I tried to write Romances for years, but none ever completely worked out. Eventually, I realized that while I liked reading the old style Romances, I wasn’t that interested in constructing my own. I’ve refocused my writing on other kinds of character relationships and find it more satisfying.
–June
Anything with the phrase ‘you must’ in it.
You must outline. You must never outline. You must never use ‘he said’. You must only use ‘he said.’ And on and on.
All writing advice, imo, is far better given without absolutes. It’s best to acknowledge that not all writers are the same or do things the same way. What works for one will stop another cold. So, I tune out as soon as a person begins telling me what I ‘must do’.
–June
I’ve always been a creative person. I used to do a lot of oil painting, but when I had small children that was a difficult hobby to keep safe. So, I decided that writing would be another way to express myself. I found I loved story telling even more than I did painting. So, I’ve been doing it nearly 40 years.
–June
In the play, Richard is the ‘main character’ but I would find it a stretch to call him the protagonist in any but the most generous terms. He is, at best, an anti-hero. I would say he is the main character and the villain.
–June
I think we are pretty much in agreement, actually. I too think that born with a deformity = evil is pretty much impossible to sell (to me at least). A villain with a deformity would be just that, a bad guy who just happened to have some physical challenge. Could that challenge have contributed to his attitude? In the ways you describe, sure. Or it could simply be an aspect of his life that’s apart from his ‘evil’.
When looking at the notion of ‘born bad’, I have a hard time with it. I don’t quite buy it because, to me, evil isn’t something a person is but rather something they do. The character’s life might help explain his/her choices to do evil, or it might not, but whichever way it goes evil is a choice the character made.
Example: two different people commit similar murders — they bash in some victim’s head with a rock. One man does this because he hears voices and thought the victim was a danger, or maybe he was desperate for the $5 the guy had in his pocket because his kids are starving. The other guy just happened to have a rock in his hand and thought, “What the heck, I’m going to kill someone.”
Now, both acts are evil — murder is wrong. But people could argue that the first man is less evil because his reasons are either understandable or his mental state is in question or whatever. But, in either case, regardless of the motivation or lack, if either fellow had merely thought about murdering the man and then dropped the rock and walked away we would not call him ‘evil’.
What I mean in this example is that the evil is in the outward expression of the thoughts. As such it is a choice. People can’t be born with a choice pre-made for them, they have to actually, you know, make the choice. At least that’s my take on it.
Straying fairly far from the disabled villain thing with this, but it is an interesting discussion.
–June
Quite the opposite actually. I think sometimes writers worry too much about how society thinks at the moment. The story should win.
I wasn’t disagreeing with your post, actually. I was merely referring to another aspect of the topic — and somewhat to the title of ‘politically correct villain’. There are people who would argue that one can’t have a deformed villain because you can’t say a deformed person is evil, or really that any disadvantaged group could be represented by an evil character (Not saying anyone here said this, but it is ‘out there’ in the world as it were).
Sorry if you took this as a slam on your comments.
–June
I argue that regardless of what society feels at the moment, we should follow where the story leads us. I dislike the requirement that villains be physically perfect as much as the notion that heroes must be. I don’t believe that good or evil is intimately connected to a physical handicap (or physical perfection), so if a hero can have a deformity, I vote that a villain can as well.
That said, I think there is an older view (the one from the old Richard III days)that is pretty much impossible to sell today. That is the notion that the physical deformity is an indication of evil. Unless it’s some trait of magic — doing evil magic deforms you — the moral state of a character and their physical soundness are not bound together.
Of course, much as I love LotR one of the things I always hated about it is the notion that elves are always good and orcs always evil. If I’d done LotR fan fic I would have wanted to write about a moral orc or an evil elf, just because I can’t suspend belief to an entire race being morally right or wrong.
–June
It sounds like you should include this material. Not because it’s historical or whatever, but because you genuinely seem inspired by it. Always follow the path that excites you through a story, regardless of whether it seems ‘PC’ or not.
As to how a disagreeable attitude is presented effectively, as with most things look to your characters. Find one who could reasonably consider the prejudice hogwash and allow him or her to (openly or privately) express their opinion. Generally, different attitudes are best presented through various characters.
–June
I still see these in books — like current published books. It’s just that they are now spice rather than every line of dialogue. When used only sparingly they tend to disappear. My opinion only, but I’m fine with them as long as they aren’t every other line. Heck, sometimes my own characters snarl a line or two.
–June
I really can’t write more than 5 days a week for long stretches. Oh, sure, I can do a 2 week marathon now and then, but that’s about it. I love writing, but I need time for the story to catch up in my head if I’ve been writing a lot.
Then again, I don’t write 5 days a week normally. I write when I feel inspired, not to any schedule. It means I take a long time to finish anything, but I’m okay with that. I don’t like feeling as if writing were a ‘job’.
–June
I suggest you not try to invent symbolism for your revision. What you say about some symbols naturally appearing in the first draft is normal, and preferable. Intentionally invented symbols often feel forced and fake. Those that rise naturally in the story are usually more authentic.
I would advise simply writing the first draft without worrying about it all too much. Then, when you reread the manuscript in preparation for revision make a note of any symbolism that seems to already be there. Decide which of these natural symbols you want to emphasize in the revision.
Symbolism is best when it isn’t too front and center, when it’s standing quietly to the side of the other story elements. If the symbolism shouts too loudly, it feels forced to most readers. A good way to avoid this is to allow the symbols to grow naturally and only slightly embellish the really good ones in a second draft.
Good luck
–JuneIf I’m writing a good story, I need to, at some level, believe these people are real. Of course, I don’t mean that I literally think they are real somewhere. But, I have to emotionally connect with them, and for that they have to be real inside me. If they’re real inside me, I’m going to be conflicted about killing them. So, for me, when it’s hard to kill them I assume I’m doing something right.
–June
Seconding Zette here.
Honestly, this isn’t a question people can really, honestly, answer. Most readers don’t stop reading because of one cut and dried event. Some readers might not like stories with really tough emotions — if that is the case it’s possible your book isn’t the right book for that reader. There will always be readers for whom your book is just a bad fit. That’s not a fault of the book, or the reader. It’s just that no book is a good read for all readers.
Further, an honest answer would nearly always be ‘it depends’. If you do it badly, people will likely stop reading, but, that is the result of ineffective story telling, not because of one story choice. If, conversely, you do it very well, even people who ordinarily might dislike this sort of story twist might well like it in your book.
So, again, just write the story as seems right to you. Write it as well as you can. If you do this, the story will find its readership.
–June
Stephen King said something about not being socially acceptable if you want to be a writer. Sorry, I don’t have the exact quote, but I think what he meant is that, if you are going to be a really good writer, you have to be honest even when it’s uncomfortable. Writing what matters to you is one way of being that kind of honest. We’re going to offend some people. It’s the nature of the work.
I also second that writers really do need to write what matters to them. I do not believe that anything sells well if the author didn’t care about it. That lack of caring comes through in the writing and readers don’t care either. So, if you aren’t excited about it, a ‘marketable idea’ won’t sell for you anyway. Might as well write what you do care about and hope for the best.
All of that said, you might also dig deeper on why this material is offensive to your betas. Is it something they have in common that makes this material a sore spot? If so, you needn’t worry about it. Not everyone will have that sore spot. But if you really feel it is something in the material, look deeper. It could be the way the material is presented more than the material itself.
I have been amazed at how small a thing can make a huge difference in how material is recieved. It’s possible that you have certain phrases that bother people, or even the juxtaposion of scenes can cause a bad reaction. You might have to question these betas farther to get at what that thing might be. It is possible that you only have to tweak a small amount of the text to remove whatever is so ‘offensive’ to these readers.
–June
