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I’ve seen a number of blog posts from outliners, mystified as to why pantsers can be so vocal. The reason is likely because every time we put ourselves out there, outliners act like we’re broken or are just being stubborn. No one seems to understand this is a very different and necessary process. The worst are very condescending, as we just really don’t get how to write properly.
One of the worst for me came during a chat about outlining versus pantsers. I kind of expected there to be more of a balance of the different types in the chats, but I turned out to be the only pantser there. One of the outliners said to me after I said I didn’t outline — and I swear I could hear the sneer in the chat — “And how many books have you written?” He expected me to say I’d never finished a book, and I told him four. He didn’t say anything else, nor did he ask any of the outliners the same question.
But the worst is a book, Story Engineering. I’m probably committing writer hearsay of something because this book is considered a Really Big Deal. I read the book because I kept hearing people talk about the unique take on structure (it wasn’t). Sometimes I’ll do that because I can occasionally can find tidbits of information I can use. Besides, really, there isn’t a book on writing that doesn’t involve outlining in some form anyway. This book kept poking at pantsers saying things like “Good luck with that!” — implying over and over again that if you don’t outline, your book will be a complete mess and you’ll never get published.
And outliners wonder why pantsers can be vocal?!
What’s the worst thing outliners have said to you about pantsing?
Linda Adams wrote:Besides, really, there isn’t a book on writing that doesn’t involve outlining in some form anyway.I can think of two: On Writing, by Stephen King, and About Writing, by Samuel Delaney.
I’ve been told by more than one person that when I get “serious” about my writing and start to write “real” books, I’ll have to learn to outline whether I want to or not, because publishers require it.
Not all outliners are evil.
I’m an outliner, I can’t help myself. But I’ve never tried to force my ways onto someone. I’ll go as far as “Do you outline”. Although when I taught a short story workshop last year, i did encourage outlining so far as the person was comfortable with it — because I was teaching from the mentality of “this works for me, so this is what I’m teaching”.
I can’t teach what I don’t use or understand.
“Your first drafts must be such a mess. How can you fix them?”
Actually, my first drafts aren’t THAT messy. They usually hold together pretty well, and I can usually complete a second draft of a novel in less than a month.
I too get the ‘how many books have you written?’ in put-down form. But, I sort of enjoy that since I will then get a stunned response when I answer. LOL
I don’t generally mind these conversations until they get to the point where someone is trying to convince me that doing an outline will make things so much better for me. No, actually, it won’t. As long as no one pulls that out, I actually enjoy discussing the differences between our ways of writing. Outliners, clearly, approach story in a totally different way from me, and learning about that is interesting.
–June
KatsInCommand wrote:Not all outliners are evil.
I’m an outliner, I can’t help myself. But I’ve never tried to force my ways onto someone. I’ll go as far as “Do you outline”. Although when I taught a short story workshop last year, i did encourage outlining so far as the person was comfortable with it — because I was teaching from the mentality of “this works for me, so this is what I’m teaching”.
I can’t teach what I don’t use or understand.
Obviously, you can’t teach what you don’t understand. Although I’d argue you might be able to teach a process you don’t use yourself, as long as you understand it. And I hope no one is trying to say all outliners are evil. Nevertheless, I do understand the frustration – most writing courses presume an outline is necessary.
Speaking for myself, I’d like to see the outliners at least explain (as best they can) why they do things the way they do, and what doing that gives them. I’m not talking about the simple, ‘obvious’ answers. I’m thinking of the kind you don’t even realise yourself until someone annoying corners you and forces you to justify the way you work until you’re driven to think – in depth – about the process you use and why you use it. Because at least those sort of answers contain some useful information, even if it’s only of the “so that’s what I’m missing” or “that’s what I need to try to make up for” variety.
Delany’s About Writing is wonderful. He’s a remarkable author. When I read books on writing, I really don’t pay attention to if they say things about outlines or not. I think almost all of them have something to offer for writers.
And this ‘worst thing’ goes both ways, by the way. I’ve had people tell me I’m not creative because I work with an outline. I’m obviously not using my imagination. (And where do they think outlines come from? LOL)
I’ve asked a number of people (outline or not) how many books they’ve finished. I’ve been trying to get a feel for the difference in output. Outliners do tend to complete more works than pantsers, who often take longer with their works. That’s not to say the completed books are good or bad — only in the level of who finishes first drafts more often. I’ve read wonderful books from both sides, and very bad books as well.
Wandering Author wrote:Speaking for myself, I’d like to see the outliners at least explain (as best they can) why they do things the way they do, and what doing that gives them. I’m not talking about the simple, ‘obvious’ answers. I’m thinking of the kind you don’t even realise yourself until someone annoying corners you and forces you to justify the way you work until you’re driven to think – in depth – about the process you use and why you use it. Because at least those sort of answers contain some useful information, even if it’s only of the “so that’s what I’m missing” or “that’s what I need to try to make up for” variety.Perhaps this should be taken to another thread. I know a few people who can probably give some pretty detailed answers on that.
JuneDrexler wrote:I don’t generally mind these conversations until they get to the point where someone is trying to convince me that doing an outline will make things so much better for me. No, actually, it won’t. As long as no one pulls that out, I actually enjoy discussing the differences between our ways of writing. Outliners, clearly, approach story in a totally different way from me, and learning about that is interesting.–June
I’ve actually had this done to me by non-writers. One was a friend of the family who kept insisting that outlines would really help and my father who seemed quite taken aback that I don’t outline.
BonnieRS wrote:I’ve been told by more than one person that when I get “serious” about my writing and start to write “real” books, I’ll have to learn to outline whether I want to or not, because publishers require it.At my Odyssey class, the instructor was a pantser, and I asked her that specific question. I had been told it by a published urban fantasy author. She said that, yes, an outline is required by published BUT that there’s a lot of leeway. At least as long as you don’t start out writing a mystery and ending up with vampires that sparkle. Someone who has read her outlines and her finished product says the books look absolutely nothing like the outlines.
KatsInCommand wrote:Not all outliners are evil.
I was trying for the spirited discussion brought up elsewhere. It did get people talking! :silly:
Linda Adams wrote:I’ve actually had this done to me by non-writers. One was a friend of the family who kept insisting that outlines would really help and my father who seemed quite taken aback that I don’t outline.This is where I really draw the line. If you’re a writer, I’ll at least grant you know how to write. Perhaps you don’t know how to write in any way that works for me, but you do have some understanding of writing. You might have something to teach me.
If you don’t write, then how can you know how to write? Would you walk into a garage and tell the mechanic, “I’ve never even changed my own oil – but I’m going to tell you how you ought to rebuild my engine”? If you do that, let me know how long you keep the same mechanic…
I’m not saying you have to be published, or that you have to be any particular type of writer. But if you’ve never done a single bit of writing of your own, you know nothing at all about it. Period. (I had one “creative writing” teacher who confessed they never wrote a word of their own. I learned absolutely nothing in that class. If I hadn’t had the sense to ignore most of what he said, I probably would have come out of there unable to ever write again… All he “taught” us were these elaborate theories that I sincerely doubt any real writer could ever do anything useful with. Gah!)
I agree on the ‘you have to understand it’. Maybe you could teach something you don’t use, by really, why would you when you can teach something you personally believe in more?
That said, I think sometimes there is this idea that a writer can only do it one way. I don’t necessarily believe that. I’ve written to an outline. I’ve written to specific length. I’ve written very very fast (a full length novel in 15 days). And I’ve written quite slowly.
What I’ve learned from all that is when I write slowly and without a complete outline I get closer to the book I really WANT to write. The other methods get me books, and some of them weren’t bad, but I was never really satisfied with them.
So, I write very slowly, very deliberately, revise as I draft, and I never outline more than the next few scenes to be written at a time. It’s not that I can’t work another way. It’s that this way has proven most effective for me.
So, yeah, I might be able to teach outlining, but I probably wouldn’t since I couldn’t really put my heart into it. I suspect someone for whom outlining worked so much better would feel the same even if they did understand ‘pantsing’.
–June
I got this once on another board. A writer, clearly an outliner, told me that my books must be a mess and it’s a waste of time writing things that have to be so heavily revised. Well, that’s the way I work. I wasn’t even sure how to respond to that. *shrugs*
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